Curse

FoxBat · Feb 20, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

25 vs 33 is a big deal, those are speed reductions not bonuses, it's more like 50 vs 33, and 17% damage bonus matters. Not enough to unseat dervs but it's relevant.

Even on a sin I don't think its sensible to fight the enchant feeding mechanics. The sin elites are horrible, the two scythe elites require enchants, and vow of strength ought to bring eremites which also requires an enchant. Critical strikes feeds enchants just as well as attacks. Heres what I had on wounding strike for example:

Wounding Strike
Victorious Sweep
Reap Impurities/Malicious Strike
Rending Aura
Critical Eye
Way of the Master
Critical Agility
EBSoH/IAtS/Dodge This/optional

6 wind 13 crit 12 scythe

One thing that's nice is bleed always ends up top, which serves as a great feeder condition for reap.

FWIW this actually outdamages a similar dervish build. Of course dervs have some very different and better builds with their enchant manipulation, but it goes to show that critical hits and 33% IAS are still relevant.

Xenomortis · Feb 20, 2011, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Ok... A/Ds.

I highly doubt you'll be able to fuel 10e flash enchantments and 5e ones aren't too common. In effect, teardown skills aren't too viable.
Malicious Strike is good, Reap Impurities looks like it might be good, Wounding Strike is dubious. So we need another way to inflict conditions reliably. Grenth's Grasp might fit the bill and cripple is nice for a physical and Grenth's Fingers converts your damage to cold (and is cheap and has a decent recharge).

So:
Victorious Sweep
Malicious Strike
Reap Impurities
Grenth's Fingers
Grenth's Grasp
Critical Agility
Way of the Master
Critical Eye

Unfortunately that doesn't leave room for something like Asuran Scan in areas where it'd be useful. The damage conversion to Cold also sucks. The skill recharges really suck.
I might test it later.

LifeInfusion · Feb 20, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Ok... A/Ds.

I highly doubt you'll be able to fuel 10e flash enchantments and 5e ones aren't too common. In effect, teardown skills aren't too viable.
Malicious Strike is good, Reap Impurities looks like it might be good, Wounding Strike is dubious. So we need another way to inflict conditions reliably. Grenth's Grasp might fit the bill and cripple is nice for a physical and Grenth's Fingers converts your damage to cold (and is cheap and has a decent recharge).

So:
Victorious Sweep
Malicious Strike
Reap Impurities
Grenth's Fingers
Grenth's Grasp
Critical Agility
Way of the Master
Critical Eye

Unfortunately that doesn't leave room for something like Asuran Scan in areas where it'd be useful. The damage conversion to Cold also sucks. The skill recharges really suck.
I might test it later.

Farmer's Scythe...also Radiant scythe in 2 hits.

@FoxBat, I think W/D is better overall than A/D simply because you can have 14%Armor penetration, nonremovable 100 armor, Power attack/Body Blow, and SY! ... not necessarily because of damage

If Victorious Sweep is the feeder for Reap Impurities, then it won't outdamage Powerattack/Body Blow spam by attack skills (+21+47 is not more than +38x2) so ultimately the only thing sins have is +55-59% more critical hits which do 141% damage, rather than 14% Armor penetration or 7.2% more base damage from 14 scythe.

You also don't need cold damage or enchants.

Xenomortis · Feb 20, 2011, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Farmer's Scythe...also Radiant scythe in 2 hits.

@FoxBat, I think W/D is better overall than A/D simply because you can have 14%Armor penetration, nonremovable 100 armor, Power attack/Body Blow, and SY! ... not necessarily because of damage

If Victorious Sweep is the feeder for Reap Impurities, then it won't outdamage Powerattack/Body Blow spam by attack skills (+21+47 is not more than +38x2) so ultimately the only thing sins have is +55-59% more critical hits which do 141% damage, rather than 14% Armor penetration or 7.2% more base damage from 14 scythe.

Farmer's Scythe is useless if you can't hit more than one target. This is scenario is not uncommon.
Not sure on Radiant; again depends on mob size. Malicious is more damage though.

Chthon · Feb 20, 2011, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

25 vs 33 is a big deal, those are speed reductions not bonuses, it's more like 50 vs 33, and 17% damage bonus matters. Not enough to unseat dervs but it's relevant.

Even on a sin I don't think its sensible to fight the enchant feeding mechanics. The sin elites are horrible, the two scythe elites require enchants, and vow of strength ought to bring eremites which also requires an enchant. Critical strikes feeds enchants just as well as attacks. Heres what I had on wounding strike for example:

Wounding Strike
Victorious Sweep
Reap Impurities/Malicious Strike
Rending Aura
Critical Eye
Way of the Master
Critical Agility
EBSoH/IAtS/Dodge This/optional

6 wind 13 crit 12 scythe

One thing that's nice is bleed always ends up top, which serves as a great feeder condition for reap.

FWIW this actually outdamages a similar dervish build. Of course dervs have some very different and better builds with their enchant manipulation, but it goes to show that critical hits and 33% IAS are still relevant.

This is more or less what I've got in mind.

A few thoughts:

1. Cracked armor matters a lot to sins. Unlike most of the primary derv builds to come out of this update, sins are still relying in large part on getting big base damage from crits. Cracked armor helps with that. Not enough to make up for the loss of AoHM, but still quite a bit. That means running Rending Aura/Staggering Force at 6 or 8.

2. Wounding Strike is not completely hopeless. You can still use it for +dmg and bleed without an enchant. That lets you do things like alternate tearing down Rending Aura/Staggering Force with just putting bleed back over the top, while Reaping the bleed off and Malicious Strike off of the rest of the condition stack.

3. If crit strikes can't pay for Rending Aura/Staggering Force every 6 sec, then there's Radiant Scythe. If crit strikes + Radiant Scythe can't pay for Rending Aura/Staggering Force every 6 sec, then their truly is no hope for scythe sins.

Xenomortis · Feb 20, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Just gave this a try on the MoD; got significantly better results than I did with the Grenth's Grasp build, but I cheated and used Olias to keep Withering Aura on me to ensure a condition for Malicious Strike. Staggering Force was not allowed to end so I didn't benefit from Cracked Armour.

10+1+2 Critical Strikes
11 Scythe Mastery
10 Earth Prayers

Victorious Sweep
Malicious Strike
Radiant Scythe
Staggering Force
Ebon Dust Aura
Critical Eye
Critical Agility
Way of the Master

I would say a Zealous Scythe is necessary for this build whereas it probably isn't for the others. My Assassin only has a Zealous scythe at the moment so I haven't tested without.

FoxBat · Feb 21, 2011, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Hit MoD, the energy works out better than fine with a zealous scythe. Assassins don't have expertise and yet power out the daggerspam build, in the end it's just pure energy and flash enchants (which don't stop you from attacking) can eat that as well as anything else. An adrenal skill actually manages better than malicious strike, since while the latter always nets 0, the adrenal can be +5 when you crit, which is often with your crit enchants.

Even if there were energy problems, I'd drop victorious before abandoning enchants. Deep wound and cracked spam is alot better than +24.

Demon's Dance · Feb 21, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Pious Renewal

Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Twin Moon Sweep
Aura of Holy Might
Critical Agility
Critical Eye/Optional
Way Of The Master
CS 12+1+1
SM 12
Crazy but it works ... especially in HM

FoxBat · Feb 21, 2011, 11:11 PM // 23:11

That bar is pretty legit, about the same dmg on paper as wounding, but better AoE radius. Put wearying strike on the bar and you have plenty of deep wound too.

syphonus · Feb 22, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon's Dance

Pious Renewal

Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Twin Moon Sweep
Aura of Holy Might
Critical Agility
Critical Eye/Optional
Way Of The Master
CS 12+1+1
SM 12
Crazy but it works ... especially in HM

Im really surprised if that works, I'd expect you to burn through energy so fast you can't even see it.

Xenomortis · Feb 22, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Hitting multiple enemies with a Zealous Scythe should net enough energy. TMS is a lot of energy gain. I'd have to test the numbers and compare with the other builds before I really comment though.

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I wouldn't use Pious Renewal on a sin but whatever works I guess.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2011, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Hitting multiple enemies with a Zealous Scythe should net enough energy. TMS is a lot of energy gain. I'd have to test the numbers and compare with the other builds before I really comment though.

Really hard to believe that even w/ a zealous scythe. We're looking at what are essentially two 10e attack skills, one on a 3 sec recharge, and a 5e attack skill with the possibility of a good energy return.

However, I might believe it if you put Radiant Scythe in place of Eremites... Maybe...

FoxBat · Feb 22, 2011, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Some MoD numbers

Both chars had a 14 Strength of Honor as their only buff. (it's hard for me to imagine a team where this isn't avaliable) Also used uncustomized weapons, and rank 3 kurzick title. Chars were positioned to only hit MoW with their basic attacks (but eremite's ticked & gained arenaline/energy from the barrels when alive)

D/? 14 scythe 13 myst vampiric scythe

Pious Renewal
Pious Fury
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Irresistible Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep
Aura of Holy Might
Open (SY?)

A/D 14 crit 12 scythe, zealous scythe

Pious Renewal
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Twin Moon Sweep
Cricital Eye
Way of the Master
Critical Agility
Aura of Holy Might

Both of these managed about 90 DPS

Confounding factors... of course armor is higher in HM, so armor-ignoring procs like AoHM go further, but the derv is only getting an extra ~6 DPS from that source @ max faction. A customized scythe would function a little better in the hands of a sin than a derv, questionable if it's enough to make up for armor. Not to mention that the sin is proc-ing SoH (armor ignoring) more often with the higher attack rate. Regardless of which one is "superior" (in b4 "SY" comment), the sin build is remarkably close/competitive in damage, enough so that you might pick this to damage highly balled foes than DB spam. (And seriously, play the damn build before whining about energy.) There are likely better scythe builds to discover, but this ought to be enough to demonstrate that the sin is still relatively competent at scythe damage, and worth working on instead of giving up.

The MW numbers on Wounding Strike build are much lower, around 70, but he doesn't factor in the deep wound and cracked armor, plus has an open slot for EBSoH or whatever. Need to build a derv WS or other condition spammer for reference first.

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I feel like A/D would do more damage (scythewise) because crits hit for max damage x 1.41 , which is equal to 16 scythe.

There's only a loss of a few damage on attack skills at most, but not needing a zealous scythe is +5 from vamp or double adrenaline (10%) from furious + ability to run whatever secondary is a big deal to me.

Also Pious Renewal is at 0 spec on the sin so whatever happens w/ respect to damage it's ultimately a gimmick.

Xenomortis · Feb 22, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I feel like A/D would do more damage (scythewise) because crits hit for max damage x 1.41 , which is equal to 16 scythe.

The crit damage multiplier is 1.09-1.10 on a scythe now, not 1.41.

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The crit damage multiplier is 1.09-1.10 on a scythe now, not 1.41.

It's 62 on 60 armor...so I guess you're right. It's 35% from customized, x1.1 would be 60.9.

Xenomortis · Feb 22, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lifeinfusion

it's 62 on 60 armor...so i guess you're right. It's 35% from customized, x1.1 would be 60.9.

1.2*1.15*1.09*41=61.67
Assuming 12 Scythe Mastery.

Chthon · Feb 22, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Some MoD numbers

Both chars had a 14 Strength of Honor as their only buff. (it's hard for me to imagine a team where this isn't avaliable) Also used uncustomized weapons, and rank 3 kurzick title. Chars were positioned to only hit MoW with their basic attacks (but eremite's ticked & gained arenaline/energy from the barrels when alive)

D/? 14 scythe 13 myst vampiric scythe

Pious Renewal
Pious Fury
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Irresistible Sweep
Twin Moon Sweep
Aura of Holy Might
Open (SY?)

A/D 14 crit 12 scythe, zealous scythe

Pious Renewal
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Twin Moon Sweep
Cricital Eye
Way of the Master
Critical Agility
Aura of Holy Might

Both of these managed about 90 DPS

Confounding factors... of course armor is higher in HM, so armor-ignoring procs like AoHM go further, but the derv is only getting an extra ~6 DPS from that source @ max faction. A customized scythe would function a little better in the hands of a sin than a derv, questionable if it's enough to make up for armor. Not to mention that the sin is proc-ing SoH (armor ignoring) more often with the higher attack rate. Regardless of which one is "superior" (in b4 "SY" comment), the sin build is remarkably close/competitive in damage, enough so that you might pick this to damage highly balled foes than DB spam. (And seriously, play the damn build before whining about energy.) There are likely better scythe builds to discover, but this ought to be enough to demonstrate that the sin is still relatively competent at scythe damage, and worth working on instead of giving up.

The MW numbers on Wounding Strike build are much lower, around 70, but he doesn't factor in the deep wound and cracked armor, plus has an open slot for EBSoH or whatever. Need to build a derv WS or other condition spammer for reference first.

1. You already identified the key difference between the pious spam derv and the pious spam sin. We've got two builds with comparable damage, but one has SY! and the other doesn't. Hard to get around that.

1A. Another meaningful comparison might be pious spam sin vs. JS+FF+DB+SY! sin. If pious spam does significantly more damage than daggers, then at least it could be said that it's something to do when "I'm already committed to playing a sin."

2. MoD is a terrible way to compare pious spam to WS. In addition to the deep wound not being counted, a lot of WS's damage is going to come from the AoE on Reap Impurities that the MoD counts but poorly.

3. I guess this is more of a general derv build comment, but: Eremites Attack, wtf?! Why is this skill showing up in so many builds when it's so marginally useful. The damage is a pitiful +16 and the AoE effect only matters if you're routinely hitting more than 3 foes with it. I'm going to hypothesize that there is no middle ground between situations where Irresistible Strike does more to small mobs than Eremites (+26, unblockable, stance removal vs. +16) and Reap Impurities does more to big mobs than Eremites (+81 on guys you hit, 102 AoE for the rest vs base+16 AoE, +20to25 AoHM AoE).

3B. That last parenthetical is an awfully good argument for why Reap Impurities is worthy of far more attention than it's getting now.

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

1.2*1.15*1.09*41=61.67
Assuming 12 Scythe Mastery.

Per Ensign, the +baseline on crit was changed from that standard +20 to +5. That's a difference of 9.050773%

For those who do their calculations rigorously:

non-crit:
rand(base-min, base-max) * customize * inscription * 2^((baseline - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

non-scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +20) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +5) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

LifeInfusion · Feb 22, 2011, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Per Ensign, the +baseline on crit was changed from that standard +20 to +5. That's a difference of 9.050773%

For those who do their calculations rigorously:

non-crit:
rand(base-min, base-max) * customize * inscription * 2^((baseline - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

non-scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +20) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

scythe crit:
base-max * customize * inscription * 2^(((baseline +5) - armor)/40) + plus-dmg

You sir, deserve a cookie. I don't play physicals enough to notice these things.